Comments on: What's wrong with the Nationalistic Epic http://filmireland.net/2010/08/11/sounding-off/ Get Into Film Sat, 19 May 2012 09:40:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Daniel Rogan http://filmireland.net/2010/08/11/sounding-off/#comment-288 Daniel Rogan Mon, 09 Aug 2010 16:44:50 +0000 http://www.filmireland.net/?p=8718#comment-288 I find it incredible that Mr. Legge is continuing this series of exchanges after his original article was comprehensively demolished by Mr. Sloane. Nationalism in cinema is an important topic and could have made for a very interesting debate but this would be dependent on both participants having a thorough knowledge of the subject, unfortunately this has not been the case. Mr. Legge seems to be obsessed with Mel Gibson's The Patriot. The Patriot is a popcorn Summer movie and hardly fit to be the film chosen to base a discussion on nationalism in cinema around. Having seen the film almost a decade ago I would appreciate it if someone could tell me where in the movie it implied that slavery didn't exist and that American slaves won their freedom after the War of Independence. In one scene a farmer frees his slave who has fought alongside him after the war is over. Beyond that I can't remember any part of the story that implied slavery was abolished. Mr. Legge stretches credulity even further with his criticism of TWTSTB. In the original article, he makes the astonishing point that socialists were as rare as hen's teeth during the pre Civil War period. Union membership, and socialist ideas, exploded in Ireland in the post WW1 era. One of the most militantly left wing areas in Ireland was Munster, where TWTSTB was set. Political strikes, soviets, and workers co-operatives were all features of this period in the south. Social issues were one of the reasons many people opposed the Treaty and it was most strongly opposed in the poorest counties in Ireland along the western seaboard. In TWTSTB Loach made it clear that opposition to the Treaty included both right and left wing republicans. If Loach would have ignored the impact of the workers' movement on this period then he would surely have been guilty of 'bad politics.' I find it incredible that Mr. Legge is continuing this series of exchanges after his original article was comprehensively demolished by Mr. Sloane. Nationalism in cinema is an important topic and could have made for a very interesting debate but this would be dependent on both participants having a thorough knowledge of the subject, unfortunately this has not been the case.

Mr. Legge seems to be obsessed with Mel Gibson’s The Patriot. The Patriot is a popcorn Summer movie and hardly fit to be the film chosen to base a discussion on nationalism in cinema around. Having seen the film almost a decade ago I would appreciate it if someone could tell me where in the movie it implied that slavery didn’t exist and that American slaves won their freedom after the War of Independence. In one scene a farmer frees his slave who has fought alongside him after the war is over. Beyond that I can’t remember any part of the story that implied slavery was abolished.

Mr. Legge stretches credulity even further with his criticism of TWTSTB. In the original article, he makes the astonishing point that socialists were as rare as hen’s teeth during the pre Civil War period. Union membership, and socialist ideas, exploded in Ireland in the post WW1 era. One of the most militantly left wing areas in Ireland was Munster, where TWTSTB was set. Political strikes, soviets, and workers co-operatives were all features of this period in the south. Social issues were one of the reasons many people opposed the Treaty and it was most strongly opposed in the poorest counties in Ireland along the western seaboard. In TWTSTB Loach made it clear that opposition to the Treaty included both right and left wing republicans. If Loach would have ignored the impact of the workers’ movement on this period then he would surely have been guilty of ‘bad politics.’

]]> By: Andrew Legge http://filmireland.net/2010/08/11/sounding-off/#comment-287 Andrew Legge Mon, 09 Aug 2010 16:41:44 +0000 http://www.filmireland.net/?p=8718#comment-287 Mr Sloane completely misses the point of my article. He bizarrely implies that I am critical of The Patriot and TWTSTB because characters "traditionally cast in a heroic role (in this case His Majesty's Forces) can on rare occasion be cast in the role of villain." My main criticism of The Patriot is that it is a bad movie and that it rewrites America's history of slavery making it look like the slaves got freedom in America's war of independence and therefore lets America off the hook for a further 170 years of oppression and segregation against blacks. Similarly my criticism of TWTSTB is that aside from its bad politics it is actually a terrible movie with a squirm inducing plot. While he is correct that Cumman na Gael were even more right-wing and unctuous toward the Roman Catholic Church than Fianna Fail that does not mean that FF weren't right wing catholics. Fianna Fail, formed largely out of a contingent of anti treatyites had a hypocritical deranged leader who spent his time banning tampons and keeping Jews out of Ireland while the rest of Europe was in melt down. In TWTSTB Loach portrayed these antitreatyites as Marxists. Socialism was a rarity in Ireland in the 20s yet in TWTSTB it makes it look like the treaty was fought over this issue. Sloane also questions whether I have seen the film after describing Loach's "evil moustached landlord screeching at the peasants in his ridiculous accent." While Roger Allam who plays Sir John in the movie doesn't actually don a moustache he may as well with the way his character is portrayed. Mr Sloane then goes on to rubbish films like Inglorious Bastards and Titantic accusing them of being bigger affronts to history. That would suggest that he completely misses the point of those films. Inglorious Bastards is highly enjoyable classic Tarantino trash. No one who sees it actually believes that Brad Pitt blew up Hitler, Goering and Goebbels. Similarly while Cameron takes himself more seriously with Titanic, his film doesn't make any grand statements about history. It's just a rather hilarious love story set against the grand canvass of the Titanic. The problem with Loach is that after making some classics in the 60s and 70s he can do no wrong and unlike Cameron and Tarantino people do take his word seriously. Mr Sloane completely misses the point of my article. He bizarrely implies that I am critical of The Patriot and TWTSTB because characters “traditionally cast in a heroic role (in this case His Majesty’s Forces) can on rare occasion be cast in the role of villain.” My main criticism of The Patriot is that it is a bad movie and that it rewrites America’s history of slavery making it look like the slaves got freedom in America’s war of independence and therefore lets America off the hook for a further 170 years of oppression and segregation against blacks. Similarly my criticism of TWTSTB is that aside from its bad politics it is actually a terrible movie with a squirm inducing plot. While he is correct that Cumman na Gael were even more right-wing and unctuous toward the Roman Catholic Church than Fianna Fail that does not mean that FF weren’t right wing catholics. Fianna Fail, formed largely out of a contingent of anti treatyites had a hypocritical deranged leader who spent his time banning tampons and keeping Jews out of Ireland while the rest of Europe was in melt down. In TWTSTB Loach portrayed these antitreatyites as Marxists. Socialism was a rarity in Ireland in the 20s yet in TWTSTB it makes it look like the treaty was fought over this issue.
Sloane also questions whether I have seen the film after describing Loach’s “evil moustached landlord screeching at the peasants in his ridiculous accent.” While Roger Allam who plays Sir John in the movie doesn’t actually don a moustache he may as well with the way his character is portrayed.
Mr Sloane then goes on to rubbish films like Inglorious Bastards and Titantic accusing them of being bigger affronts to history. That would suggest that he completely misses the point of those films. Inglorious Bastards is highly enjoyable classic Tarantino trash. No one who sees it actually believes that Brad Pitt blew up Hitler, Goering and Goebbels. Similarly while Cameron takes himself more seriously with Titanic, his film doesn’t make any grand statements about history. It’s just a rather hilarious love story set against the grand canvass of the Titanic. The problem with Loach is that after making some classics in the 60s and 70s he can do no wrong and unlike Cameron and Tarantino people do take his word seriously.

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